Lived Experience Forum

[Appleblossom]

I always loved the poem about marriage in "The Prophet" which ends with the image of two trees not being too close together becasue they need space to grow.

Sometimes being close is seen as a "good" in relationships but can also mean overcrowding and ego merging and too much control by one party.

I just would like to tell you that last weekend I flew interstate to see and celebrate with my youngest brother and his son.  That brother was separated from me when I was 6 and he was 6 months.  He was raised by foster parents.  I continually reached out to him since I was young as I always FELT and knew him as my baby brother who went missing.  He was understandably less attached but did respond in his way. We have weird ways of being very similar as we are biologically related, and different with completely different upbringings.

It was quite bizarre because we met in his son's school hall, just prior to the event He was resting after his long flight from Germany.  It is a wonderful that we could spontaneously organise that on Thursday by email and phone and come together from different points in the globe so quickly.

It is also sad because he is in Germany on immunotherapies fighting Stage iv cancer.

Inspite of all his amazing exuberance, positive thinking and financial success he is stressed to the max and does not really have a home to call his own though he owns 9 houses in Sydney.

That is the reality of our family life.  He is another who I am at risk of losing.  I have to stay positive and acknowledge my work in this relationship too, but also realistic.

It is not fair and a reason why I am ambivalent about the idea of karma.It is a very clear reason why the stigma of MI and the stigma of suicide need to be addressed because judgments just keep on being heaped on us.

Sorry @Karma but I can only accept a sophisticated concept of karma not the glib putting down sense that I have often encountered in casual conversation.  Can you please explain some of your beliefs about karma. At the moment I see karma as a call for me to put things right about my family TO a world that is much less ethical than it pretends to be.

[CherryBomb]

Hi @Appleblossom,

I thought i'd just pop in here to check in if you were directing your conversation at the moderator, @-karma- or the member, @Karma? I ask because @-karma- is not working tonight, and might not be able to respond for a few weeks so I just wanted to let you know.

It's a great question that you ask, and I've often thought about the same thing. I hope you don't mind me putting in my two cents here, but I'd like to offer what I think karma might be: The way that I understand karma is that it's about creating good around you, in the hope that it generates goodness beyond your immediate space so that it benefits you and others.

[Appleblossom]

I am ok with long term responses. I have always been patient.

I also dug into this forum to look for threads that were discontinued but that I thought were of value.

I dont mind who addresses any aspect of any topic I raise. I see it as part of healthy and open dialogue.I had not distinguished between the moderator and member who use the word karma. So I invite both to contribute about their views if they wish.

I like your take on karma and that will do for me.

I was also using the example of meeting my brother last last weekend to show how much above and beyond the call of duty and supposedly normal parameters my family members have struggled to achieve a sense of family unity. When effort is unable to manifest in the world it is sad but not, I believe, karma, as that generates a sense of blame not helpful and probably just a bit superstitious.

[CherryBomb]

Hi @Appleblossom

I think I can understand what you're saying - if one puts in an effort that doesn't manifest into something, it can be disheartening. Have I understood it?

I try to take 'karma' as a concept, not a necessarily a device force. I think we have agency in life, and that life is more complicated than good, will lead to good. What I try to take away from karma as a concept is that having the intention of doing right by myself and for others - even through tough times - can hopefully lead to postive outcomes.

I recall one dark period in my life when I went through some pretty intense stuff where there was one blow after another. In tears, I spoke with a good friend and questioned the idea of karma. I said that I couldn't understand why these things were happening to me when I try to do right in life. My friend said to me, that it wasn't really about bad things happening per se, but more about the way we can respond to challenges in a way that is kind and caring to ourselves and others. This has resonated with me. What stood out for me was the idea of taking control of the situation by being mindful of my response.

Great thought provocative conversation @Appleblossom!

[Appleblossom]

Yes I think you understand what I mean.

I nursed my little grudge about "karma" for a few decades until I discussed it with a client of mine who was also had been a yoga teacher all her life.

I think a lot of westerners have grabbed onto eastern spirituality but not penetrated the practices or ideas that deeply. I have had to become very spiritual because my loved ones were "on the other side" so to speak, but because both my parents alienated others with religious obssessions, (part of their illness and/or their culture) I try to be careful not to do the same.

I am at home with most spiritual traditions as I do see them as a way for people to express the best they can be, and notice that in London a group of atheists were gathering on Sundays mornings to listen to lectures on Science and make music together.  Ah people are critters of habit.. 

[tria]

Hi Appleblossom I feel I have an understanding of your kindness to your brother and your own need for connection to him. I sometimes look at my life and how it is full of unnecessary and time consuming actions. I have only recently moved into a more philosophical and spiritual way to act and be. If Karma is to believe that there will be a return to oneself now or later it is a belief that accrues patience. I am not giving advice here appleblossom just thinking out loud. It is taking me some time to acquire my spiritual being, this may be like your brother it’s not an easy development and having you around when you can may help him to see his spiritual connection in the future. If not spiritual just another way of being. I have heard of some of the atheist/science gatherings developing here in Australia too.

[Appleblossom]

Lol my daughter was probably big in the local atheist conferences, I know her enthusiasm, but now she has her hands full of work and twins. She is so like me it freaks her out so she tries to artificially create a difference by going a-theist. Ah The life cycle.

I dont really push beliefs as such, mainly ideas, values and experiences. I tell those in my church I am more interested in god with an extra O and that the rules of physics apply.  Which is a bit confronting but I try and be nice and say well if it was good enough for Sr Aileen its good enough for me.

She gave my son "The God Delusion" when he was still enrolled in a Catholic school .. lovely darlings. He would joyfully run down my end of the house and point out some argument or other.  Yeah Yeah Yeah, mum studied enough biology decades ago to agree but not think Dawkins that innovative or creative. He has the same cult problems as many who were in religion on all sides of that spectrum .. which brings us back to physics and shrinks. 

Hmmmm These days they'd probably call me an aspie.  Which is why I learn from their culture and think we should be aware that neurotypicals are only one way of viewing the world.

My still surviving brother was incredibly materialistic which is how he made his money but I always saw his spirit.  He often lives in an Ashram in Germany now to do his immunotherapies.  We both said rosaries with mum in December because that is what made her happy. She got a big kick out of reuniting with her long lost hyper successful son. But if he is dead before 50 that aint much good for his kids.

[Appleblossom]

My brother with cancer is coming back to town ...

somehow I feel very ambivalent about it ... sad ...

I guess I just have to face up to the fact that I didnt get love and respect ... I thought I had worked hard enough and hoped I was worthy of it ... but ... no takers ...

[Deano-]

Hi @Appleblossom,

According to my opion Karma  play the very important role in our life. We can  get the good and bad Experience in our life according to the karma. 

[Appleblossom]

Now I am longer in the tooth .. I have felt the wheel turning and have better experiences... that I have worked very hard for. Maybe the point is to hang on long enough so that we get some just rewards. In my experience and I have spoken to a few yoga teachers and teachers of yoga teachers etc... "karma" is an overplayed concept. I have just seen too much injustice. Predators tend to get less karmic punishments than others ... it can be an excuse for people to have no compassion for others who are suffering and in a worse situation ... allowing people to say 'they deserved it' etc... I dont see the world as a level playing field .. sometimes there is Natural Justice ... but not that often.